Let it be accepted that Islamic extremists behead people because they have subjectively interpreted certain scriptural words in the Quran to their own supportive intent and behavior.
This is is absolutely true.
Jonathan Drake
JoinedPosts by Jonathan Drake
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@never a jw
Then check the link, and buy this:
http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199535957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423424095&sr=8-1&keywords=Quran
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@cofty
regarding your second post, which I didn't see until mine posted - sorry:
its a matter of not taking the context into account. The Quran, like the Bible, stresses that any who do not accept gods messengers (I.e., Moses, Jesus, Muhammed), and turn to God will likely die, unless God shows them mercy. But it is nowhere proscribed for the Muslims to take action against anyone. They are only to defend themselves when attacked, but stop of they assailants stop and be forgiving (see previous post). All judgement, as in the bible, is left up to God. They are forbidden from violence except in defending themselves. It is these latter verses, which are clear in their meaning, that are twisted by radical Islam as well as guys who misunderstand like that one, to mean offensive violence.
the social and cultural context of the Quran must be considered, and in all the verses where defending oneself against assailants is sanctioned it is specifically referring to a certain people at that time on particular. It was not a sanction for on going violence against people who attacked you 100 or 1000 years ago, it was saying that IN THE INSTANCE OF ATTACK, you may defend yourself. But, as the previous verse I quoted clearly shows, if the attacker stopped they were to cease all hostilities and be merciful as God is merciful.
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@Cofty
Quran 3:195, "Their lord has answered them: 'I will not allow the deeds of any one of you to be lost, WHETHER YOU ARE MALE OR FEMALE, each is like the other [in rewards]." This verse stresses equality between men and women.
Again, the way women are treated in many Islamic areas of the world is not based on the Quran. The Quran stressed gender equality,
http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/equality.html
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@finkel
the Quran doesn't anywhere sanction offensive violence toward non believers. And it does condemn to hell those who do so. The verse you quoted was not direction to the people through Muhammed. It specifically says," When the lord revealed TO THE ANGELS" this is not direction to mankind to do anything.
also it's in a sura that is talking about the Meccans. I've explained earlier the Meccans were the ones initiating confrontation with the Muslims. This verse is specifically regarding a people who had INITIATED battle with the Muslims. They were never anywhere directed to seek out violence with them.
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@cofty
i did not say it was an Islamic teaching that they are supposed to take the bible as scripture as well, I said the Quran says so. The Quran does say this, many many times it says it's a "confirmation of other scriptures not a replacement". Do Muslims believe this? No. Does the Quran say it? Yes. So it's just am example of a previous point I made, which is that like the majority of Christians the Muslims do not actually listen to their own book. My primary argument is that the Quran says what it says, and that it does not support terrorism or hate but love and forgiveness. The group ISIS takes verses out of context to support their cause just like JWs do or Catholics. As terry pointed out earlier, the religion does not represent God. Religion and God are not hand in hand. The Quran and what it says is a separate issue from Muslims and what they believe. I've also shown elsewhere that the Quran calls Jesus the messiah and since it's meant to be taken with the bible it would support Jesus ascension regardless of what Muslims believe. It cannot be avoided that, regardless of what they believe, the Quran says what it says and is a witness against them by the majority.
@loveunihateexams
i agree that enough Muslims agree with ISIS to provide an army of at most 50,000. However, being that there are over a billion Muslims in the world - this is less than .5 percent.
I will concede that arguing the Nazi party would never have taken over and led to the haulocost if not for Hitler is a moot point since it happened and cannot be tested otherwise in any way. However, it took hitler to get the ball rolling and lead them down that path- so it's an argument I, personally, will hold to; without Hitler, it would not have happened. He was the reason it happened, not Germany, not being German, not even the events leading to the support from those who supported him- just him; without him it wouldn't happen. I believe this completely.
@Simon
the difference between the Crusades and isis is that it actually was sanctioned by the entire Christian empire including its emporer. The two scenarios don't have any real comparison because unlike ISIS which makes up less than 1% of all Islam, the Crusades were supported by the 99% and only opposed by less than 1. People were just crazy about joining the crusades and fighting for the church and God. This is absolutely not the case with ISIS.
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Elders Starting To Poke Around... Advice?
by Garrett inas many of you know, i've been out of the organization for about a month now.
the elders haven't shown an interest in my absence until now.
today, i have received phone calls from two elders as well as a friend.
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Jonathan Drake
So far I just ignore them. There's been two people I've had to say something to and I usually day this:
"I have serious disagreements with some things that have taken place recently, as well as scriptural discrepancies I have found in my personal study. If you wish to discuss them I am willing, but I will not argue and I am not interested in being called an apostate- so unless you are interested in a real open minded discussion I will be keeping my feelings and findings to myself."
so far this has worked. I would be selective of the personality you say this to if you choose to use it.
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
@ cofty
i agree with both of your posts, and what you said is kind of the point I was getting at. There were elements at work which Hitler manipulated to rise to power and in his rise he made the proper connections and moves to draw out the crazies. But these crazy do not define Germans either now or then.
every culture or group has a small percentage of crazies, but these people are like a dormant volcano. They need a charismatic leader to spark them and drive them. Without this leader nothing would ever happen. So the issue at hand is that rather than Islam being the problem, it's craziness, and rather than the people, it's the leader they turn to.
As an example, look at JWs. We are all likely be able to think of nut job JWs. The ones who keep to themselves and never go to the theater or parties because it's got some satanic influence. These people are the crazy hardliners who think even their fellow religionists aren't really following the religion truthfully. Every religion has them. But the religion isn't the issue, these peoples mental attitude is the problem. All it would take is a charismatic person like Hitler or Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to set them off and direct their crazy in a certain direction. But without these people to set it off, they are largely docile weirdos.
ome amendment I'll make: they do not take the Quran as literally true. Unless they do it in the same sense JWs do the bible. Which is to say they reach a wrong conclusion based on twisting the verses. The Quran says multiple times it is meant to be taken ALONG WITH the bible (both old and New Testament). Thus everything in the Quran is meant to be taken in the context and restrictions of biblical verse. There is no support in the Quran for what Terrorists do except by malicious slander of the book.
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Jw wedding talk giving questionable advice as usual
by hoser ini recently went to a wedding and listened to the wedding talk at the kingdom hall the couple had both heard the talk before as they were both married in kingdom halls before.
this is his second time and her third.
the advice given.
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Jonathan Drake
Her third his second and they were allowed to have big wedding at the KH?
This is exactly what I as thinking. This guy must be well connected with the leaders in the hall. Or her daddy is an elder.
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303
The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen
by TerryWalstrom inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k
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Jonathan Drake
I don't go along with the gun control analogy - me neither. Simon's German analogy seems better. It's seems obvious to say that Nazism had something to do with Germans, even though not all Germans were Nazis.
Criticising Islam or calling for reformation is in no way attacking muslims as a whole, in the same way that criticising or ridiculing the Catholic church or WTS is not attacking catholics or JWs.
People talk about the fact that there's such a diverse range of Islamic interpretations as if that's something wonderful. I couldn't disagree more. Diversity isn't always 'enriching'. All I want is for Islam to acknowledge its place within Western society, something that is yet to happen.
I could see this, because it's also true that the Qurans words ARE IN FACT being used even though they are being MISUSED. So in a sense the German to Nazi comparison does sound good but in a sense it does not. People like to claim that millions of Muslims may not be ISIS but that they agree with their actions. This is absolutely not true. Just because many Germans in Germany didn't speak out against Naziism doesn't mean they supported them - it means they understood of they spoke out they'd be killed.
The center of the Muslim world is right there in the same region with ISIS. Therefore the majority will not speak out, because they will die if they do. However, all around the world in farther away lands they are fearlessly condemning these people. So even if we can say that the Germany illustration fits, we are really just agreeing that that the majority do not support the radicalism the few are displaying.
also, naziism had nothing to do with Germans. Hitlers ascension to power was a mischievous one where his true intentions were at first difficult to see. Once he had power things went wrong fast if I remember correctly. The issue wasn't all of Germany, just the one German. Just like the issue with radical Islam isn't all of Islam, just the one leading radicalist.